well i'm glad that question's settled!

"A threesome to me seems to be the ultimate exemplification of that equality...if the threesome is in the dark where the women cannot see each other’s awrah and there is no discussion afterwards, then surely the husband is only fulfilling his duty to treat both wives equally and thus justify his decision for taking another wife in the first place."

Is this all part of some plot to convert us?

"If the man’s awrah is not an issue then surely there are other ways of pleasuring him. All, bar one, of which are not haram."

What's the haram one? The Prophet (PBUH) didn't like French?

Wait, so you're saying it's makrooh? ;P

dear all-

thankfully we have, after all that silly talk about family structures, corruption, and the iranian regime's anti-zionism, come back to an interesting topic...

the answer to baal-shem-ra's question is here.

in the end, however, it all depends on what a muslim thinks the prescripte texts to be. if you only accept the qur'an, then it depends on your interpretation of what "tilth" means in this context. if you want to go the "sunnat al-rasul" path, then it depends on which hadith collection(s) you accept to be correct. and if you are a "modern, cultural" muslim - you know, those crazy people who drink, or smoke, or have premarital sex, or all sorts of other vices - well, in that case it's up to your personal inclinations to decide how concrete and how metaphorical the respective verses were "meant to be".

damn zionists.

--raf*

Thanks raf.

Note that there are dissenting views.

Shia.

I remain bemused by the angles taken here.

I don't like Sistani's fatwa site. No citations.

why is it that these sorts of topics always seem to draw the most attention?

We're simply degenerates who happen to have superior vocabularies.

I do wonder about my colleagues, but obviously sex sells.

Hmmm, I wonder if should get a fatwa on accidentally having sex after daybreak during Ramadan if one honestly (more or less) believes it to be before daybreak....

Oh see now you have gone and lowered the tone. It was all reasonably dignified and academically third person until then.

Seconded. Tsk tsk.

(Re: daybreak sex, I think you'll have to feed 60 needy people and/or fast for another 60 days. Something like that)

"Hmmm, I wonder if should get a fatwa on accidentally having sex after daybreak during Ramadan if one honestly (more or less) believes it to be before daybreak...."

"(Re: daybreak sex, I think you'll have to feed 60 needy people and/or fast for another 60 days. Something like that)..."

Well doesn't it depend on whether or not it was a threesome?

(Really lowering the tone, now......)

ya sabaya,

seeing that my irreverent self really doesn't care about what may or may not be haram/halal/makruh/etc. ... i am just intrigued by the fact that the male/female "private area" should referred to by a term that sounds like "aura". maybe all those catholic/orthodox icons got it wrong when they put the halo around the heads?

damn zionists.

--raf*

Well of course any comment I make should be read in the third person as I rarely if ever comment on my own, personal, activities. All very theoretical.

Aura and Awra sound nothing like each other, they merely look alike. Please consult those 'damn zionists' for clarification.

m-

awrah & aura DO sound like each other ... in quite a few languages. granted, not in texan english, but then ... that's not what i meant.

no need to consult them z-people for that.

--raf*

Well of course any comment I make should be read in the third person as I rarely if ever comment on my own, personal, activities. All very theoretical.

Theoretical - really? Then if I'm reading the other linked no-nos regarding intimate activites correctly, then someone will also be in trouble for discussing intimate activities with someone else not directly involved. Theoretically, of course.

Well, that's only one Sunni school's opinion. Maybe those libertime Shias have a different take. I wonder what Sistani thinks? I am oddly amused that he finds playing chess to be forbidden debauchery but is OK with anal sex.

Chess forbidden, eh? Interesting. It's says it's to prevent debauchery and gambling, but surely chess is a poor candidate for gambling? Not nearly enough luck involved. Unless they're concerned with betting on chess events, like boxing, which can't exactly be common. I wonder if the real concern is stifling intellectual growth outside of Koranic contemplation (which the clerics have a monopoly on anyways, what with their fatwas).

Oh, should've probably said something about threesomes. Hmm, in the dark might work, especially with today's obssession with religious literalism. Gotta close those legal loopholes!

> ...the whole sordid affair can be conducted in the dark, which I am sure is how the majority of couples choose to conduct their physical relationships...

Presumably blindfolding the girls would be OK as well? Heh.

Amusing concept in general, of course, but if we're to pretend seriousness, it seems somewhat unlikely that the "majority" would be so explorative as to actually need rules for the peculiar procedure of simultaneous partners in practical application.

hmm..interesting. If my husband had a second wife, and we all thought this was halal, sounds all good to me. But hold one, what about the hadith about two women not sharing a cover. i mean, clearly this is not simply resolved by not having a cover during... is it? Meph - your resoning is lucid and clear mach'Allah - looks like someone who studied usul.(?)
in any case, thanks for opening debate on this issue - why not, eyh..if its halal, its all good!

Salam Alaik,

I see a lot of such topics being discussed on net. In most of the cases people or proponent of an Idea, pick one verse of Quran or refer to very limited number of Hadiths to thier reasoning. Islam is not like a quick-fix, which you can apply and the problem is over. It is a way of life and any problem/situation should be discussed in the very sprit of Islam. First, you have to be a practicing muslim who have full faith in Quran, Rasool, and Hadith. And it is general rule that if you do not know something in its entirity then it is better to consult the scholars. Never ever try to justify with your imcomplete knowledge. I do not say that you have to goto a Mufti, but still you need to goto some one who has good knowledge of Quran, Hadith and Islamic History. Even you can do it, no one bar you from researching into Quran and Hadith, but even if you consider yourself as research scholar of Physics you would never say anything unless you have perfected your solution, so it is better advised that do not keep or have animosity related to any Mufti (based on his nationality or sect of Islam), rather see his Fatwa in the light of Islam and when we say Islam, it is meant to be for practicing muslims not for those of our brother/sisters who accept only that part of Islam which is easy for them and rest is never accepted to them.
thanks

And so we have another uptight whanker who entirely misses the bloody point.

However, thanks for illustrating the point of view of those who've got no 'Aql of their own.

Hah, I had forgotten all about this post.

Bloody hell me too, and what a debut!

Meph - your resoning is lucid and clear mach'Allah - looks like someone who studied usul.(?)

Indeed though not as a specialty, use the knowledge now to play devil's advocate whenever the oppurtunity arises.

I stumbled upon this post and I think that it's very well argued! My question would be whether the two wives could enjoy themselves (blindfolded of course) and the husband just watch on the sidelines?

;)